December 2000 The Psychedelic News

At the age of 20 you were already seasoned veterans of gigging …

Of course, nowadays five years goes past pretty quickly! But in those days, five years prior to Procol Harum, things seemed to last a long time.

You co-wrote one of the most revered and popular songs ever with "A Whiter Shade Of Pale". Can you tell us a little about its creation? Was it one of those "cosmic" situations that I've sometimes heard about where everything falls into place rather quickly or was it a more involved and lengthy process?

Oh no, cosmic. In that…cosmic is one way of putting it, not quite sure what it means, but it was a matter of having a musical idea at the same moment the words cropped up and at the same moment we were rehearsing our set with our band which by then had Matthew Fisher in it for instance as well, who was vastly capable of taking over the organ on it. And I think, apart from all those cosmic things, it also in the studio on the day, it got a good sound. It was not easy to get a good sound in those days with five of you playing, one singing, not the easiest of things to get a good sound. We were only on four track machines and therefore it was all done live and I think probably if we had done it the day after or if the drum kit had been on a different side of the room, it might not have turned out like that. We might have done another take of it and it might not have turned out like that.

There's a great story that some people may not be aware of. Before the song was officially released it was arranged to be played on the pirate Radio London because you wanted to hear what it sounded like on the radio. Tell us a little about that.

Yeah, it all happened very quickly, but we had made the record, the single if you like. I think we were a bit worried about the cymbals on the drums, that they were a bit splashy, not that there was a lot that we could do about it, but that's the way it seemed to have come out, and I don't know why but we were worried how it might sound on the radio. Therefore, somebody that was working with us called Tony Hall knew somebody on one of the pirate ships because there was no such thing as national rock radio in those days in Britain but there was a demand for it so the demand was satisfied by these pirate stations that were mostly on boats out in the North Sea. So the DJ played it on there and we all sat at home with our radios tuned in and listened to it and it was very exciting actually. I think I forgot to listen to see what the cymbals were like! But he announced it, he just said, "This is a new record here", and he put it on, he probably hadn't heard it, and when it finished he said, "That sounds like a hit".

Did you have any idea how successful "A Whiter Shade Of Pale" was going to be?

No, not at all.

Did you think it was a special song?

No. No we didn't think it was special actually. It was no more special than quite a few of the other songs that we were up with at the time. In fact, we went in the studio and we cut that one, and we cut two songs, and we thought either one of them could turn out well. But in fact on the day the sound was much better on "A Whiter Shade Of Pale" than on the other one. And it was a culmination of a few months work of writing and getting the group together and rehearsing so that we had a set to play when we went out. We were enjoying ourselves and we were enjoying the songs and we hoped and felt that we had confidence in ourselves that you have to have in whatever you do. And for it to be a hit, of course, was marvelous. We thought, "Well, that's good, yes, things are going right then! Things are going as we hoped!" But of course "A Whiter Shade Of Pale" took off very, very quickly, within a matter of almost hours, and days, it grew very quickly and spread very quickly into other countries as well.

Shortly after the incredible worldwide success of AWSOP, there was some turbulence that eventually led to a change in managers and in the line-up itself as BJ Wilson came in on drums and Robin Trower on guitar. A statement from manager Jonathan Weston at the time read, "The strain has been too much. It has all been too sudden." Was that period simply a matter of too much success too quickly?

Well, he may have said that but it was…I mean, we parted company with him for various reasons. And I can't remember the exact ones now, but I remember I was going to the studio and this Rolls Royce arrived at my door to pick me up. And I said "Well, no thanks", you know, I said, "Where have you come from?" and he said, "Your manager sent me", I said "I can get the bus from here, this is ridiculous". So I sent him away and got the bus. I thought, well I don't like people just wasting…spending money because of course he wasn't going to pay for it, that's for sure. You know, he would have arrived a year later and said, "Well, hang on, we've just had a hit record, we've been all round the world working, how much have we got?" and that's when they tell you, "Well, I'm sorry you owe us £25000", or whatever. Which did in fact happen to some extent and that wasn't a happy story. "A Whiter Shade Of Pale" did happen very quickly. We really weren't quite ready for it to happen that quickly. We didn't have any clothes, and we were still testing ourselves out, the members of the band. We had actually been in the studios just the once, and when we got in again, various things came to light in the style of people and so we did have a bit of turmoil while we were still number one at the time. But with Procol we always wanted to get it right and so we just sort of closed up for a few weeks and had a look 'round…we were after in fact a drummer and a guitarist. I just put forward two of my friends' names that I'd played with in The Paramounts as you know, and I said, "Well, I'm not saying they should join up unless you play with us and audition and get whoever else you like as well." A few other people came…just in a hall and play together for a while and nobody else apart from myself knew Robin or BJ Wilson but everybody else in the band, the managers and Keith etcetera etcetera, said, "Well, they're the boys", and so we got our heads down then and made an album.

What were the recording sessions and creative processes like for Procol Harum? Were the musical ideas very structured prior to coming into the studio or was there room for the song to evolve and travel in different directions?

Well, I think it always traveled in different directions. I think with the first album the songs were kind of already written and we'd rehearsed them a bit and that's the way they went. But I think with our second album it was much more of an organic thing and it growing more in the studio and people being able to add their own talents to it beyond the song but in their playing as well, and other people started writing immediately by the second album.

The outdoor rock and roll festivals of the late 60s and early 70s. We know what Pete Townshend thought about performing at Woodstock in particular and at large open-air events in general. You've played in front of hundreds of thousands at some of the biggest festivals ever. Some of the line-ups and the diversity of the acts were incredible while some of the festivals have taken on somewhat mythical proportions. What are your memories about playing some of those massive outdoor shows like The Atlanta Pop Festival, Isle Of Wight and Woodstock 2?

I don't remember any of that! I remember the Atlanta Pop Festival at the raceway and I remember the Miami Pop Festival and I remember one out in Palm Springs as well and there's also another one out San Francisco way. But they were great events, marvelous events. The bills were amazing for some of them. It was amazing. It was fantastic to stand on the side and watch all these people and such a feeling of…well the quality was good, the atmosphere was amazing and there was a great feeling of friendship. All the other bands, all the other singers and artists and the audience as well, and they were all half naked! I remember Atlanta, yes, I remember it now, there was a lot of naked women there!

The Psychedelic News put together a tribute to The Atlanta Pop Festival (30th Atlanta Pop Festival tribute issue) this past August. One of the features of that issue was a piece written by Richard Beck that was originally posted at the BtP website. He was one of the hundreds of thousands who took in that show and he put together a vivid memoir of his time at the show with a vivid recollection of Procol Harum's set. Anything stand out for you as far as the musical acts?

That was the first time I'd seen the Allman Brothers. They were playing a type of music that I wasn't really all that familiar with, not really. The psychedelics and people like Dr. John and people like that. Because of course you were still getting pop artists on those things as well, people that had been around for a while like The Turtles or something I remember when we were at the Miami Pop festival. You got a great mixture as well. The crowd and the rest of the artists, everybody had good respect for each other and gave everybody the time. The Jazzers and the Indian players and everything.

You contributed your handwritten notes to the Beyond the Pale website detailing the frenzied activity and difficulties you faced leading up to the brilliant "Live With The Edmonton Symphony Orchestra" in 1972. They provide a fascinating personal insight into the behind the scenes challenges of putting that show together. Tell us about the making of that album and for those not familiar with your notes, the problems you encountered.

I only found them just a couple of months ago in the back of an old book of some sort. They were actually on BOAC paper, which at that time was the British Over Seas Aircraft Corporation, who were the ones that used to fly across the Atlantic (click here to view Gary Brooker's hand written notes as submitted to the Procol Harum Web site). And I thought, "Oh here they are then!" When we were up there I think…the idea was I was going to have a little diary and I thought I might be able to make some notes, perhaps some liner notes or something, didn't know what was going to happen anyway. The fact that it came out as a record happened afterwards almost. But I only found them the other day and I thought, to some fans or something that's probably of some interest.

I only read those notes once and I seriously had not found them since probably writing them so it wasn't something I'd held on to and found every now and again or kept in a file thinking I can use this one day in some way. So I just read them once and thought, "Oh, well that's a bit of fun." So, I read them the once and now I've forgotten what they said. But of course after the event, years after, or even probably a few weeks later, you forgot all the bad parts and you remembered all the good parts, which is just a more positive way. It certainly brought back a feeling of, "Oh yes, I remember, it wasn't all sunshine." There was a lot of problems, a lot of problems, and I did have a terrible clash with the conductor and I believe he also got drunk, a lot of whiskey, and then started shouting at me and he got so very arrogant. This was the night before the concert, the night we arrived in Edmonton in the cold. So, it was a little bit of a worry and we also lost our equipment. It was very, very late getting there, it got held up somewhere and there were some songs that we…I know that we never rehearsed "Conquistador" with the group and orchestra, we ran through the music of it just with the orchestra, because I'd only just written it on the plane, the arrangement, you know, trying to find a fast one for the night, something a bit more rocky, and I thought of a different way of doing "Conquistador". We never got to try that with the band because we'd run out of time with our equipment being late.

"Conquistador" was never fully rehearsed?

No! It wasn't!

The difficult circumstances you faced in Edmonton resulted in some spectacular music. It's interesting how friction within a group or situation can sometimes lead to incredible musical moments, The Beatles and Cream I guess would be perfect examples.

I suppose that's true in music. Although, I don't think it's the… you shouldn't be too conscious about it. You don't try and put together a load of completely opposite maniacs in order to make some good music. It sort of comes about without you really realizing it, clashes of personality or jealousy or somebody wants to be better than somebody else or somebody's getting too many girls after him. You know, all sorts of things can happen. And I think in Edmonton, yeah, the tension of everything made everybody keep on their toes as much as they could and a lot of adrenaline... I mean BJ Wilson on the drums was bursting energy, you could feel it coming out of the whole track, especially on "Conquistador", he's like saying, "Come on orchestra, quick, come on, follow me."

Speaking of BJ Wilson, in January classicrockpage.com along with the help of the BtP website, put together a mini tribute to BJ Wilson (BJ WILSON Tribute). I'd like to add your recollections of him to the piece. What are some of your lasting memories of BJ as a drummer, band mate and friend?

Well, I'd always thought he was very much younger than me but…it'd be a couple of years younger than me, no more than that. But, when we first met him he was about fifteen and was very accomplished. He was a total drummer, totally dedicated to his instrument and knew so much about it. I just used to look at him on stage and I used to know exactly what he was going to play, not because he played it before, because he very rarely repeated himself, but I just knew what was coming and of course he also knew at the same time what I was going to do. He had about three things going with his kit all the time, he would add bits that went with the vocals, or went when there wasn't the vocal and he would have bits that were going on with my piano…he wasn't so much a drummer that just sat down and played with the bass player. He sort of played more with the lead and interest that was going on. He was totally into it every time he played and that came out. Anybody that ever saw him would know that, he was totally absorbed and almost in another world. All he was doing was drumming, every little ting on the top of the cymbal was very involved. And he had a great background, he had played as a young lad, that was probably in the story of him, he was in boys bands and that so he knew that military style and he used that to great effect at times. He also took drum lessons with Joe Morello the Jazz drummer for some time, I think he went one day actually, though he learned a lot, he took it all in. He used a different grip to what most drummers do, with his sticks, and he got terrific power. You don't have to wield a great stick from great heights as if it was a club, he had it gently resting between his fingers but when he whacked it, it was just as loud as anybody else. He was a good man and sadly missed and he was a good friend and anybody that met him, you know, BJ was the one out of the band that they always remembered. He was the one that would be talking to the other bands always, very friendly.

Some of the Procol Harum music played on our Internet radio station, CR Net Radio, are lesser-played songs like "Boredom" and "Repent Walpurgis". The station has been compared to the underground radio stations of the 60s...

Well, that's a compliment. It's over formatted, even the classic rock stations have been over formatted as well. I know Procol Harum has suffered from it in that you might hear just four tracks that you kind of hear, it might be more, I don't know, but that's the ones you hear. When you say something like "Boredom" or "Repent Walpurgis", it's nice when that suddenly comes out the speakers and I'm sure other people enjoy it as well.

What comes to mind when I mention the following Procol Harum songs? Maybe a brief thought or memory, something about its creation, recording or performing it live.

Boredom

Boredom, oh Boredom, in fact I only found out the other day that I wrote it with Matthew, I'd forgotten that. As he kind of sang it, in the mist of time, I always thought that he wrote it. It turns out we both wrote it, apart from Keith's words as well. Matthew was the originator of the idea in the first place and I think it's one of those great, well not particularly great, but one of those studio recordings where you take advantage of what's around, which in that case meant that we got our recorders out, we found a marimba or xylophone or something in the studio, and just used some different instruments.

Repent Walpurgis. That intro hits you every time no matter how often you hear it.

The organ or the drums?

Both actually.

Well, yeah, one sets the other one up doesn't it. Well, I actually stuck the middle in it. I remember that because I thought it just went round and round and round and I said "Well, lets add something different in the middle Matthew." "What?" "Well, we'll just put this little part in" And Matthew always wanted to call it Repent, and I thought it should be called Walpurgis, so we compromised.

For Liquorice John

Always interested in that one because it's one of those Procol ones that goes off... it's a different direction. Maybe not so much a different direction so much really, but it's a different kind of song, you know the actual composition of it. But it was really a sad song because it was about somebody that we'd known who jumped off the top of a building and it was a tribute to him really. So, it was a bit of a sad one.

Simple Sister

I think Procol from the start, what we wanted on the guitar was Blues guitar. We didn't want Jazz guitar or anybody too fancy. It was the emotion of Blues style of playing, or modern electric Blues playing, that we wanted and it was sometimes…you had to think quite carefully if I was the one that was writing the song that I wanted it to be actually a guitar based song, I'm playing the piano and there are plenty of songs where the piano or keyboards seem to take the lead and sort of drive the whole thing. Simple Sister, I wanted to write a good guitar song, that's what I wanted to do.

Certainly did the job.

Yeah, but basically you can almost play it around one chord, but it's got a few little nicks in there which Robin managed to find his way around, but I bet if you just heard the guitar on its own it would sound like he was playing in C minor all the way through.

A Salty Dog. BJ Wilson called it the most beautiful song he had ever heard.

That's sweet of him. He did love that one. Everybody comes to like it at some point. It seems to have lasted very well as well. I mean "A Whiter Shade Of Pale" is always the obvious one that seems to have lasted and everybody has heard but "Salty Dog" I was out playing that in America when I was with Ringo last year, and I had to play that in the middle of his show, well it was Ringo and the All Stars, and it was where everybody went offstage. So, I had to play on my own, sometimes with 10,000 people that were still coming down off of "Yellow Submarine".

Quite the mood and tempo change.

Tempo change, mood change, any change you can imagine really. I just used to throw myself into it, pull the veils down, let the waves wash over, and settle in. And the audience always settled in as well, which I thought was really lovely of them because they could have said, "Hey, man, we're going out for a beer" or, "Where's the ice cream man?", but they didn't, they always went lovely and quiet. I usually think of BJ Wilson when I play that one anyway.

You've recorded and toured with an incredible array of musicians, everyone from Eric Clapton, George Harrison and Paul McCartney. Do you enjoy the role of the sideman musician? Is it nice to be able to take a break from the front man role?

Well, when I first did it yeah. I was with Procol solidly from '67 to '77 and then I got the chance to play with some other people. Played with the saxophone, girls, things like that. So it was enjoyable and playing with Eric, which I did in the early '80s, it was just great not to have too much pressure on you really and be playing somebody else's music. It was just a bit of a relief after many years of doing your own thing. And I learned a lot from it as well and I'm still doing it now. Still enjoy playing with other people and playing their kind of music instead of what I would do.

Are you aware of any Procol Harum material in the vaults (live or studio) and if so do you think they'll ever be released?

Well, there might be the odd thing but I don't think were talking about sort of anything like different songs. I mean there might be one or two somewhere but I don't think there are because we used to write songs and we'd try and write them as best we could and we'd go in and record them, and that was it. Ten songs or however many it was, the amount of time you could get on vinyl, which I think was a maximum of forty minutes, and that was how many we wrote and that was how many we recorded. We worked on them and recorded them and mixed them. We didn't go in with twenty songs and not know what we were doing.

	The Trip Continues . . . Expand Your Mind visit classicrockpage.com	Dec. 2000 - Issue 15